Junk transmission, high price overhaul

Discussion in '1947-1954' started by KentC, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. KentC

    KentC Member

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    Son and I pulled the motor and transmission on the 53 3100. The engine is a 1960 235ci with an 848 head. It leaked or used a quart every 100 miles or so. The transmission is the standard 3 speed.
    We took it to a local mechanic and he said the transmission was junk and he would not recommend rebuilding, but trying to find another.
    The engine has lots of play in the front crank bearing and he thinks maybe $1,500 to $2,400 for the overhaul and machine work. We have already done the body work and the pickup looks pretty good. Son just refinished the motor body area, so that looks good too, under the hood. We live in the Lubbock, Texas area, far West Texas.
    I need suggestions on an alternative, either finding another transmission and used motor to install as is, or finding a larger used motor with the remaining back endwards replaced. Please advise.
    KentC
     
  2. brit 50

    brit 50 Member

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    I cant believe the trans is junk, parts are easily available on the net as I found out when I rebuilt my 4 speed, these boxes are so easy to dismantle and put back together and the kit I got from Novak came with bearings, syncro's, gaskets, seals and numerous small parts required and full instructions on how to do re-build, unless something is totally destroyed inside your box I would look at fixing it up, other companies do mainshafts, gears and assorted assemblies, I live in England and had kit shipped over and even though I hate re-building boxes (only done a few in my time) physically it was a struggle wrestling with the sheer weight of the box, it was not hard to do, just carefull disassembly and lay the parts out in sequence, then re-assemble with new parts, change all bearings and syncro's even if you think they are ok, most bearings only need slight persuation to come of and go on so the whole job took a day even though I was a novice with these boxes so think about it before you send another box to the graveyard.

    Cant comment on engine as I am driving Nate up the wall asking him about mine!!:rolleyes:

    Neil
    ________
    Bondage model
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  3. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Engine & Tranny Overhaul

    What Neil said ! .

    Your side loading Saginaw tranny is -SO- simple it's amazing ~ you need another mechanic .

    You should be able to take it to a local tranny rebuilder and exchange it for about $600.00 , NO ' core charge ' or ' let us look inside and figure out what all it needs ' bullsirt either . bearings & synchros are easily available , it'll prolly need a new cluster shaft and re-bushing od the cluster gear too . I've seen brandy new gears for sale recently as well , DO NOT use "republic" brand gears ! they're made of _CHEESE_ by the way they wear .

    You might try looking into hot roddres junking thier old stock trannies ....cheap thataway , under $200.00 for a good used one .

    WHY did you want the tranny rebuilt ? did it pop out of gear ? make horrible grinding noises ? what ? be specific please .

    These engines are extremely simple and were designed for roadside overhauls in blowing dust 1/2 way through the harvest....

    A few questions about your engine :
    Did the oil pressure gauge move off the peg when it was warmed up and idling ? . if it did , even a tiny bit , you can most likley slip in a new set of main & rod bearings , no need to turn the crank . this is 1940's tech and supposed to be fixed this way , black or blue bearing journals means crank must be turned but if it was running O.K. with oil pressure and didn't knock it should be fine . be aware I am not there looking into your crankcase saying
    " OH MY GHOD ! :eek: " but it's hard to kill these things .

    Smoke ? when ? under acelleration or when you let up on the gas or all the time ? thin blue trailing out the exhausat ? blue/white puffs every time you upshift ? . thick white clouds of choking white smoke that had every cop in the County after you ? (like my old '46)

    Loose valve guides produce lots of smoke but then so can tapered cylinders .
    I had .016" taper in my old 235 , I repleced the _three_ cracked pistons & installed new rod bearings , touched up the valves and it was still running like a champ 15 years and 40,000 hard work miles later when I stupidly sold it...

    So , take a deep breath and think about my questions , lemme know and one way or t'other , well get you back on the road affordably .
     
  4. KentC

    KentC Member

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    Transmission

    I had not planned work on the transmission, but while pulling the engine I looked at it. The front sleeve that the throw-out bearing rides on was broken and the front bearing was really wore badly, I can shake it with visible motion and noise. Prior to the pull, I thought it was clutch jutter, but looking at this problem, it must have been the transmission. The mechanic pulled the side plate off and there was lots of motion on the inside, appearing to need bearings, bushings, maybe shafts, not sure. 1st gear was pitted and worn badly. I am not familiar with the terms, but looking in, I would say it needed the cluster gear. It certainly needed synchros and it did pop out of 1st when I was pulling a light load, or winding out of 1st too high. There truly was too much motion inside the box and the mechanic was worried that he would spend more on the work and parts that it would cost to get another one (he called it junk, meaning cost to repair > possible alternative). He (the mechanic) was new to me, but I think maybe he just did not want to do it. Even though you say it easy to fix, I do not want to attempt, even though I have mechanical appitude, common sense and have a repair manual - not comfortable about getting it perfect. I will call around next week, check out the exchange thing, alternatives, and wait for any responses from this website. $600 is lots of money, but I trust it will last. I will pull the plate, look into it this weekend, study it, maybe take the challenge, but doubt it. Man those gears were floppy. Thank you for the help.
    Kent
     
  5. KentC

    KentC Member

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    Engine - Motor overhaul

    The engine ran and sounded good prior to the pull. But it leaked or used a quart of oil every 100 miles or so. The front and rear seals leaked very badly. It sat in the west Texas wilds for 40 years. It was also getting hot on me on the 100 degree days, driving 65 or so. I had the radiator "rodded", cleaned and it was definitely stopped up badly. But it was still overheating, not as bad, but still. I wanted to get the head and block checked for cracks, needing to pull the motor anyway.
    The oil pressure was 30 at startup, cold, but dropped to 5-10 after warmup on a hot day. At a quart low, it was down to near zero, but stayed near 10 full of oil. I never heard any knocking.
    The crank has visible motion, up and down, back and forth, not terrible, but certainly worn. West Texas is sandy and the dirt blows here in the spring. Smoking - when gunning the engine, light smoke when at idle. No real clouds when going down the road, certainly livable, smoke wise. No cops problem on the smoke emission.
    I think the engine can be fixed economically, given: no cracked block, no ruined crank, no cylinders already rebored, a non-greedy mechanic/machine shop. I will shop around more. This mechanic had a machine shop too, doing all his work. He was going to likely turn the crank and rebore the cylinders, figuring upfront they would probably need it. His machine work was priced at $380, not bad. He was about 55, had a clean, well-organized shop, lone ranger type.
    Be advised that farmers in West Texas, 50 years ago, used a machine until it dropped. My father (his 53' then) squeezed his farm machines until they screamed.
    Also, I may have access to a 292ci. Does this fit with no modifications? What about a 261, if I find one? What about buying a rebuilt short block from folks that do this all day long, assembly line stuff from Dallas or Lubbock?
    KentC
     
  6. brit 50

    brit 50 Member

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    If I were in your boots I would put the gearbox on your garage floor with a clean old blanket/sheet next to it, slowly take it apart using the truck service manual that is so easy and cheap to get (believe me you really need it, its a godsend) lay all the parts out in sequence, very important, in sequence! even though the manual shows how to re-assemble its always that part your not sure of that has the oily fingerprint covering it on the picture! and you can't quite see which way round it goes, at 9pm and your tired etc etc.

    Anyway, I digress, take the box apart then get some de-greaser to wash the parts in (we call it parrafin over here not sure what you guys use) and inspect each part carefully, then put it back in sequence, make a list of the bits you need as you go along, then you can price up on the net the cost of your re-build, dont worry about all the special tools they say you need, I did mine with a lo-buck bearing puller and some inginuity, some bits of tubing and a copper mallet come in handy,

    Couple of tips, never hit the outside of a bearing to get it off or on, only the inner race. dont hit hardened steel parts ie; gears,shafts or bearings, with a steel hammer! chance of shattering and expensive eye surgery! I found my box came apart real easy, things just need gentle taps to get them apart.

    Think carefully when re-assembling, allow lots of time to do it, dont rush, and do it when your head is clear, not thinking about problems at work, the kids schooling, that argument with the wife! enjoy the re-build, its so satisfying to try the shifter and it all works!

    Take it apart first, it won't cost anything to do that, then go from there.

    Neil
    ________
    Ferrari Dino Engine
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  7. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Tranny Repair

    O.K. , point taken .

    These trannies are never ' perfect ' ~ they're loosey-goosey 1930's technology but can be made to shift well (NOTlike a Toyota !) and stay in gear , noise under a gentle whine or hum .

    The 1st. gear slider is designed to be flipped over and re-used , it'll be noisy but last another 50 years .

    When (if) you pull the input shaft out , the roller bearings will fall out most of the time , not to worry they'll be in the sump . always replace these and inspect the bearing surface of the 2nd shaft for wear .

    it might be better to get a rebuilt one , I see older rebuilts on E-pay all the time , left over in the back of some rural shop , cost is usually low but there's of course no warrantee there so you gotta gamble , I don't mind and have come out O.K. so far .

    BowTie Bits , is a shop you can trust 100 % if he says he has one but -not- cheap sad to say .

    If you buy one from who knows where , bve sure to count the input shaft's splines before paying as there are one or two alternatives that look the same but won't quite fit :eek: .

    Keep us posted on how it goes in any case .
     
  8. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Engine Repair

    I see your engine sounds in pretty good shape for a farm truck . I know how farmers treated the machinery , I was on a farm as a yoot .

    GM made this truck for that typ of service _and_ to be cheaply overhauled by the same skinflint farmer to run a long time on a serious budget .

    you have plenty of oil pressurre , I'd go on in and overhaul it but you might be ahead by hunting for a good 235/261 takeout , over on the Task Force pages you'll find lots of hot rodders taking out good used or even rebuilt 235's and then they just sit there , you should be able to buy a god one for under $250.00 complete , fan to cluch ~ look at the older ads or wiretups of how they hot rodded it as the old engine tends to be still sitting under a tarp up to 5 years later...

    Your head might be cracked , I posted up a good used head and other engine parts not long ago , again they're out there and cheap too if you take some time to look...

    A 292 will _NOT_ fit with out some extensive surgery on your truck ($) .

    I hope this helps.....
     
  9. KentC

    KentC Member

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    Location:
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    Transmission Repair

    Subject: Repair of 1953 Chevrolet 3100 pickup 3-speed transmission

    Problems I see, looking at exterior and down into shifter plate hole (transmission has been pulled):

    1) Clutch Gear Bearing Retainer (throw-out bearing sleeve) is broken where sleeve attaches to 4 bolt plate. Need new or used good.

    5) Clutch Gear Bearing has too much wear and needs replaced.

    6) Clutch Gear - small gear on rear end has considerable rear end wear where it connects into1st/reverse gear cog. If this could be replaced (the small gear), that would work.

    7) Needle Bearings - I counted 14 removed, but there are 18 slots. Before removal of clutch gear, there was lots of movement here. I assume they were left out when worked on last, but not sure. Need replaced.

    13) Rear bearing has some play, not bad, but let's replace anyway.

    16) Speedometer Drive Gear - missing, need to add in.

    19) Synchronizers - are out, let's replace if not too much money.

    28) Counter Gear Assembly - Middle gear is slightly pitted, not bad though, need needle bearings (#23).

    32) Reverse Idler Gear - chipped on rear gear. 1/4" of play between reverse idler gear and reverse idler shaft. I see no bearings or bushings in picture to replace. Clearly this needs replaced, assuming both the gear and the shaft.

    39) Shifter Fork, 2nd & 3rd - One side is badly worn at an angle. This could/might be rotated 180 and work ok, not sure.

    The pickup had what I thought to be clutch jutter, until I pulled the motor and looked at the transmission. The front sleeve (#1 above) was probably the problem, as was the missing needle pin bearings (#7 above). I assume there is a rear seal, but do not see it in the picture (or is u-joint part of transmission lube system?). I had driven at 65mph, looking into the box, I wondered how. I assume a "Kit" would have most of the above, but not all.
    KentC
     
  10. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Tranny Fun

    Well ;

    It looks like you have a real handfull there . I'd say go ahead and find another tranny , rebuilt .

    Yes , the U-joint is part of the tranny lubrication sysytem and is why it is _so_ critical to ease the oil in , allow it to flow out past the rear bearing into the U-joint cavity and then top up some more

    The ball is ciritical to how it fits into the back of the tranny too ~ A nice guy (here I think) hipped me to the proper way to shim and fit it , not difficult just takes some time like any 50 year old machine repair requires .

    This is the ' Bread & Butter ' work that paid my rent for so many years , it is simple bench work and I miss it more than you might imagine .

    Keep the postings coming ! .
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2006
  11. brit 50

    brit 50 Member

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    owch!

    Wow, that is a trashed tranny you got there, bet the clutch wasn't working and the previous just banged it into gear! Thats one gearbox that has come to the end of its hard life.

    Neil
    ________
    Buy extreme q vaporizer
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  12. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Typical farm truck actually .
     
  13. brit 50

    brit 50 Member

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    Yeah, forgot your idea of a farm covers as much land as this little island I live on! our farms would be called a back yard in your country! ha ha
    ________
    TOYOTA R TRANSMISSION SPECIFICATIONS
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  14. Chiro

    Chiro Member

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    Hey Kent,

    I am just embarking on my project and about to purchase a parts truck and other stuff. It seems I may have an extra transmission for you in the very near future. I have no idea about it's condition, but if you are close to me, you can come pick it up and check it out if you like, no charge. I am in New York on Long Island. Trans comes from a '54.

    Andy
     
  15. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Farm Trucks

    Actually it's not the territory , it's the near total lack of servicing that most farm machinery gets that kills it , operating in such a high dust / dirt/ mud enviroment .

    When I was young , there were always lots of dead vehicles and machinery lying about (yes , our farms tend do to be rather large) that I could usually get operating again in a day or less with minimal $ investment , good thing too as I had _zero_ $ to $pend (typical farm kid) and I even knew how much free Diesel fuel I could cut my gasoline with and still have the doggoned thing start on a cold January morning...:D

    We were -so- poor , I learned to salvage _brake_fluid_ out of rusted out cars & trucks...... :eek:

    -Nate


     
  16. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Used Tranny

    This sound like a good deal , the '54 prolly has open joints and so you might have to assemble one out of the various bits........


    -Nate

     
  17. KentC

    KentC Member

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    Transmission

    Thank you for the comments, and no, I live in West Texas, too far to look into the NY thing. I might have found a rebuilt one in Lubbock, will know maybe tomorrow. It is $500, not cheap, but again rebuilt. If it does not work out, is there a national transmission shop that might have one in stock yall are aware of? This may be the way to go.
    On the cotton farm, in West Texas, we were raised as if we were poor, but were not in reality. The ole man could squeeze a nickle until it screamed. We ate well, and lacked for nothing. However, Daddy's religion was hard work and he practiced it "religiously" on his two sons. I started serious farm labor at age 6. 15 hour days were the norm, but so was steak, potatoes, gravy and vegetable nightly. A couple of beers and a gallon of iced and sweetened tea nightly after all day in the West Texas hot summer sun was heaven. So was taking off the shoes after hoeing all day. Work, eat, bath, sleep, was all there was. Daddy had no debt, looked after his own, and answered to no man (or government). Kids today would call the CPS to stop such a life.
     
  18. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Rebuilt Trannies

    Well ;

    You might try Jasper Engine Rebuilders in Jasper ,Colorado .

    Of Chevs Of The 40's in Wa. state but they're _really_ $pendy .

    Hard farm work never did killed no one ~ oh wait , what about all those guys and kids who I saw killed by machiery :rolleyes:

    Well , like you said : on the farm we didn't have fancy anything but there was fresh (if tainted by hog & cow poop) air and always _plenty_ to eat , plenty of work to do too ~ hard to imagine it now , looking at my 240 # of weight :p

    Good luck on your tranny hunt and keep us posted .


    Interestingly , I had a buddy who had three of four of these side loader three speed Torque Tube trannies in a box , he said I could have them and I'd planned to rebuild one and maybe patch another for re-sale , instead he hosed them and ruined all the machined parts.....

    I realized we weren't such good buddies _AFTER_ I'd rebuilt his driveline :rolleyes:
     
  19. brit 50

    brit 50 Member

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    There was a different work ethic in the old days, I have to admit that nowadays I have to go through 10 "apprentices" in as many weeks just to find one who is A: willing to break a sweat at work B: listen and learn and C: not be on his mobile phone every two seconds to his mates, planning to go out and get absolutely hammered on weeknights!! if you tell kids these days you gotta do some graft to get somewhere the answer is normally "whatever"
    ________
    X Hamster
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  20. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    What's The Matter With KIDS These Days ?

    That's why the Good Lord gave you feet , shod with steel toed shoes/boots
    to insert in the backside of any recalcitrant youths . :D

    I trained a wayward kid my son went to highschool with , he was/is a real wiseacre , when he was working for me and got uppity etc. , I'd just kick his shins , he claims to still have scars but is now a hard working young man who owns his own shop .
     

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