Engine swap Q

Discussion in '1947-1954' started by rix 48, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. rix 48

    rix 48 Member

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    Changing from my 216 to the FP 235. Removing the lifters from the 216 to get the front plate off (after removing the cam) was no sweat...how do you remove them from the 58 235? They seem to stick after lifting about a half inch?

    Rick
     
  2. coilover

    coilover Member

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    The lifters have varnish on the part that is below the lifter bore. I use laquer thinner in a small squeeze bottle and just dribble a little on the lifter and work up and down. Pulling hard won't do much good and neither does twisting back and forth--just keep working up and down and it will come out a little further each time till it's out. On some V8's the cam scuffs metal off to the side of the lifter (mushroomed) but never have seen this on a 235. On one with hydraulic lifters they have a tool that grabs into the retaining clip groove but I hate to force all the gunk through the lifter bore when it can be disolved easily.
     
  3. Chiro

    Chiro Member

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    Why are you removing the front plate from both engines? Are you planning on using the front plate from the 216 on the 235 so the front engine mount studs can be used? does your 235 not have engine mount studs on the front plate because it is a post-1955 engine?

    If that is the case, it is not neccessary to swap the plates. Unless you are planning on changing out the timing gears, it is a LOT of work for no good reason. Often, the fiber/composite timing gears will be damaged while removing them (you may not even SEE the damage) and will spontaneously dis-assemble (read...fail catastrophically, blow apart...whatever) if removed and reinstalled.

    It is much easier to just drill out the plate on the later 235 and use 7/16" bolts to mount through the front engine mount to the frame. I think the dimensions for drilling are on the Stovebolt site.

    Andy
     
  4. rix 48

    rix 48 Member

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    Andy

    Haven't really considered it to much work to this point. I did consider drilling the plate on the 1958 engine but decided to see how it all goes together/comes apart since I'm using the bell housing, flywheel, and clutch from the 216 on the 235. (Yes, going back with the 6V starter) No fiber gears that I've seen? Look like brass to me? Maybe on the crank? I'm new to all the mechanic stuff...learning as I go, of course with some mistakes. Nothing to costly yet! :rolleyes: Learning most of it from you guys.

    Rick

     
  5. Chiro

    Chiro Member

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    Does the '58 engine run? If so, you do not have to take it apart to throw it in the truck, drive it around and enjoy it. If it was a running engine and you plan on putting it in and driving it without completely tearing it down and rebuilding it, then just put it in the truck as is without removing all that stuff (lifters, front plate, cam, etc.). It's really easy to drill the front plate to match up with the front engine mount. It will also be a lot quicker to drive, less expensive, stc. to just put the engine in a drive it. 99% of all abandoned projects happen because of complete disassembly and then being overwhelmed by the thought of putting it all back together.

    Haven't needed to take apart my 235, so glad to hear the timing gear is not composite

    Andy
     
  6. rix 48

    rix 48 Member

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    Engine tear down

    Andy,

    I've not seen the engine run. Was told "it was runninng when I took it out". Basically "free" considering everything that came with it. I tore it down to replace all gaskets and clean the block. Everything looks good to this point with one exception. The oil tube on top of the rocker arm is broken where it curves back down to the head:eek: Not sure how important this is?

    This is a frame off project and I just finished the frame. Now, the engine and tranny go back in next. Test run, then the cab...lots of work to do there. While this is an overwhelming project, I seem to be getting enough time on it to stay focused. Just hope the money holds out:D.

    I did go to the Stovebolt page and got the specs for drilling the plate but we're only talking 3 screws and 2 bolts at this point. Cleaning the lifters to get them out isn't a bad thing either.

    Thanks for the input

    Rick
     
  7. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Cam Gears & Lifters

    O.K. , if the cam gear is brown , it's fiber and needs to go ! it WILL break in time and leave you stranded :mad:

    All replacement gears and some truck gears are aluminum .

    One VERY important thing about the lifters ! : they MUST go back against the same lobe they were against before else the cam will run flat in 10,00 miles if not sooner :eek:

    The rule of thumb is :

    Old cam & old lifters in the same positions = O.K.

    Old cam & new lifters = O.K.

    New cam and old lifters = BAD , DON'T TRY IT .

    Reground ('rebuilt') lifters = CRAP never , EVER use them , even if they're free ! .

    I agree with Andy ~ you should look up drilling the front plate and do that as it makes life for you so much easier .

    The central rocker stanchion oil overflow tube is to direct the excess oil (yes , guys , it is possible , stop laughing) back out of the rocker chamber and down into the tappet chest where it'll then drain back to the sump after lubing the cam and tappets rather than remain in the valve chamber where it'll get sucked past the valve stems and produce smoke , foul the spark plugs and create carbon deposits on the piston crowns and cumbustion chambers .

    They's out there on old junk engines or , if you find the broken off part or bend a new one up , you can simply Silver Solder or Braze it back into place .

    *IF* your oil pump isn't all worn out and *IF* the rod and cam bearings aren't all worn out and then *IF* the rocker's bushings and shaft aren't all wobbly , then you might see oil running out of this tube when the engine speed exceeds 1,000 RPM's or so.... :rolleyes:

    As long as some oil comes out of the rockers somewhere it's good to go ~ GM really hit the nail on the head when they designed this sturdy powerplant as they _knew_ it would be used and abused with minimal service , under the harshest of condtions .

    Don't use thick oils in this engine ! . it likes thin oils the best and will outlast you if you use synthetic oils .

    I hope this helps , sorry if I rambled on too long but I REALLY like 235's :D

    :cool:
     
  8. rix 48

    rix 48 Member

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    Wow, Nate!

    I did expect you to have some advice but that was over the top. Thanks!!!

    I had already considered brazing the broken piece to the oil tube. I just wasn't sure what it did. Excess oil...now that's a good one!;)

    I may reconsider changing the front plates? The next person may need the mounting holes. Still, would like to change the gasket on the back of it and drill it while it is out.

    Already planned the lifters back in the same spot. Infact, them and the rods and head bolts are labeled in my favorite refreshment box.:D

    The engine seems to be in good shape (65K). Cylinders show a very small ridge but pistons are tight. Cleaned about 2 inches of sludge/rust out of block. Most of it around the #6. (Never did find citric acid powder):cool:

    Next Q about this engine: What size are the freezeout plugs and is that misterious plug on the back of #6 cylinder a freeze plug? If so, what size?

    Thanks again guys,
    Rick
     
  9. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    Front Engine Plate

    O.K. , I never did this as it's cheaper & easier for me to rustle up a good running 235 for $35.00 but there's two bolts that go from _inside_ the sump into that plate , the fix if I understand correctly , is to remove the bolts and then drill and tap the holes so you can now put bolts in from under the timing cover and not have to drop the oil pan...

    It's covered in excruciating detail over on The Stovebolt Page....

    I know it's been written up or linked to , here so an archive search is next methinks .

    Yes , I have seen quite a few 235's with a steady stream of oil gushing out the end of that tube.... :D
     
  10. willardgreen

    willardgreen Member

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    Hi Nate. What vis oil do you call thin? And is it ok to put synthetic oil in a 50 year old engine. Have heard that synthetic will make it use oil. I have never tried synthetic in the 235 in fear of this. I like synthetic because it seems to clean better than conventional oil. Have used Mobile One but now use Royal Purple because it is avaiable.
     
  11. vwnate1

    vwnate1 Member

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    The Dreaded Oil Thread ~ FLAME SUITS ON !

    Synthetic oils are great in older engines as they pretty much stop the wear cycle dead in it's tracks , I have some old Honda Motos from the 1960's that now have over 20,000 miles on them (Honda 90's) due to my using only synthetic oils in them.....

    Synthetic oils are _highly_ detergent and so they'll break loose all the accumulated sludge and crud inside an old engine , this means that the first oil change should only go 50 miles or so before changing it and the filter (yes , the By-Pass filter DOES work) when the engine is hot , you'll see some really nasty stuff in the drain pan but don't sweat it .

    Failure to do a short , HOT oil change is a serious gamble I'd never take after seeing old Porsche engines go KABLOOEY .

    Synthetic oils also drip and seep a bit more than Dino oils do but these 1940's tech engines were never oil tight , not even when new ~ you can install a PCV system to drastically reduce seepage (as well as clean up your engine and help the enviroment but I digress) so just get used to shampooing the engine every couple months .

    No thicker than 50W in muti-vis oils , I use 10W-30 , 10W-40 , like that . I'm not fond of 20W-50 multi-vis in a 235 but I suppose it's O.K. in the Southwest
    during summer .

    Royal Purple Moto Oil ? here's a true story : my son is a desert racer , (car , truck and Moto) , he swears by Royal Purple , @ $8.95 / Quart I pass on it but he insists , he has a 1992 (?) Toyletta pickup truck with a 2.4 liter 4 bahnjger engine and he drives it like a race car off the track too , it's always either against the red line or idling , no in between ~ he ran it for several seasons of desert races and was telling me the rods were loose , low oil pressure and I could hear them , he let his girlfreind drive the truck for a while and she short shifted it , lugged it around corners in town in third gear etc. , pretty soon it began knocking REALLY loudly and the oil pressure light was on all the time .

    he drove it omy house and off came the oil pan , un capped the rod bearings and LO ! tin foil came out , all of the rods had the Babbit pounded out and two had the copper underlay scraped away to the steel bearing shell ~ :eek:

    amazingly , the crank journals were all PERFECT ~ not a scratch , no discoloration , no wear whatsoever was discernable ~ :confused:

    we slipped in a new set of OEM Toyletta bearing shells and buttoned it up , it's running perfectly again .

    If I had not seen this with my own two eyes , I'd have not believed it .

    It's due to the incredible lubricity of Royal Purple Motor Oil .

    I keep the ruined bearing shells on my desk @ work and show them to the
    " mechanics " there , no one believes this story .

    So yes , if you're rich , please marry me and buy me old truck parts....

    OOPS ! I meant to write : and can afford the co$t , my all means do use Royal Purple Motor Oil but remember : even though the oil doesn't wear out , old tech engines load it up with dirt , acids ans wear particles so it still needs frequent changes .
     

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