Background: 1954 235 motor complete rebuild currently 5,000 miles, mechanical lifters, 6 volt system, petronix in distributor, starter and flywheel from a 216 motor, foot pedal starter (rebuilt), generator. Battery is new optimum red top 6 v. Battery cables size is 00, both ends cleaned. Motor from the flywheel/clutch section is grounded to the frame at the same point that the battery is grounded. Motor ground wire is the flat branded style. When jump starting with 12 volts the motor semms to turn over a little faster. Question 1). Can the flywheel be installed in such a way that the timing marks are not valid? I have tried timing with the vacuum gauge to verily success. Runs good hard to start. Question 2). Even timed to the timing mark and valves adjusted (Hot) the motor is still hard to turn over. It just barely turns over and then acts like it hits a low compression cycle and usually starts right up. Any idea about what to check/verify. I am going to take the starter off and have it checked by the local starter rebuilder next. Is there anything else I should check? On my 1962 235 motor the 6 volt starter spins the motor over pretty fast and strong. Thanks, Chuck 1951 Chevy 5 Window Truck
Just for fun, try stomping the starter with the key off. If ignition timing is giving you grief, cranking the engine over with no spark should work OK. By the way, where in Tx?
Good thought. Will try Friday when I get back. Huffman (lake houston area). I keep the truck at the folks place near lufkin.
New Info on hard starting motor 1). With key off or on voltage at the starter is 6.2v 2). Cranking voltage with key off or on is the same 5.7v when motor spinning freely and 4.7 when motor seems to be under hi compression. (Still making a couple of turns then seems to hit a high compression and then starts spinning freely again). 3). Remove all spark plugs and motor spins over with good speed. Voltage at starter is 5.8v. 4). Motor continues to spin over good until the third spark plug is re-installed. Does not matter what cylinder is the third spark plug. 5). No difference in the way the motor spins over with key off or on. Any more ideas or things to check. Right now I am going to get the starter checked Monday at the local starter rebuilder.
The way the cranking voltage drops when you load the starter makes either the starter itself or the battery suspect. If the the starter's already off take it in and have it tested. First guess on the starter would be worn bushings and the armature is dragging on the field shoes. If the starter checks out Okay have the battery load tested to make sure it has sufficient capacity under load. If both the starter and battery check out it's time to Voltage drop both positive and negative cables. I'm assuming you have a digital volt meter, if so polarity of the leads does not matter. If you are using an old analog (needle type meter) then lead polarity is important. To test the positive cable place the positive meter lead on the center of the positive battery post, and the negative lead on the positive cable stud at the starter motor. Observe the reading on the meter while cranking, especially when the starter slows down. I've not dropped a 6 volt system before, but I wouldn't think you should have more than .2 to .3 volts max, the lower the number the better. Next perform the same test on the negative cable, this time the negative meter lead is held on the center of the negative battery post and the positive lead is attached to a good clean ground on the body of the starter. While cranking observe the voltage, like before you shouldn't see more than a couple of tenths. Just because the cranking voltage at the battery is 5.7, you still need to make sure most of it's getting to the starter. If either cable drops more than a couple tenths while cranking, disassemble, clean and tighten all connections. Excessive drop on the negative side could even be paint or corrosion between the starter body and the bell housing. While the starter is off make sure you have clean shiny metal where the starter body contacts the bell housing.
Hello Jr. Its fully possible to turn the flywheel the other way around of your 235 engine. The marking on the flywheel is the same. People do that when the teeth are a bit worn out at one side. But when engine runs check the ignition timing with a stroboscope lamp. Check the rang order of the plugs wires according the ignition timing of the 235 , look in the manual ! Are they and the plugs in good condition ? Use the multimeter to check the coil and relay. I would check if the Pertronic Ignitor works properly ? For some years ago i did the swap to and could not get the engine to work right and installed the points and transistor back again in the AC Delco distributor. Engine was running like a dream after that. It seams later i had bought a model that was not right for the AC Delco distr. six engine 12 volts. When engine starts look if it produces enough light up front . Strong light beam means coil + dynamo + relays are o.k. What kinda gasolin do you have in the tank and is it fresh or old ? Maybe condense in the tank ? Check the starter , take it out of the truck engine and test it on the bench to see if the bendix comes out fast enough to make the flywheel to go round. Clean the starter motor properly if needed on the inside and outside. Test it by using your noose if it smells burned ? Sometimes the collector burns up when the copper wire is damaged. Check the condition of the brushes ! Take the cover of the cylinder top and check if the valves close and open in the right position. Start up your engine and look if all the valves are moving up and down as they should be and if there comes oil to the cam ? Is the cam overhauled and balanced out to ? Martinius.
No way this is an ignition problem Martinus, as Jr. said the symptoms are the same with the ignition switch on or off.
Bill i am not for sutain here either but i think its a way to eliminate engine ignition problems by taking an inspection of the flywheel it self. Sometimes these flywheel bolta loosen and the timing wheel is of its range. Checking out cost him a 15 minutes taking of the cover and starting up the engine.
Update 1. Had this problem before pretronic was installed 2. Plug wires are in correct order 3.plugs look good and clean 4. Fresh gas 5. Motor runs very good once it starts. 6. When manually turning over engine to adjust valves they all open correctly. Have not checked while motor running. 7 went to the local starter rebuilder and he checked starter. He did not think it was the starter but he did not check under load. Kinda disappointed as he has been rebuilding starters forever. 8. No burned smell from starter. 9. All voltage reading initially reported were taken at the starter post and ground strap on motor. I am going to bite the bullet and get under the 47 tomorrow and take the starter out of it. Then install the starter from the truck and see how it works. The starter on the 47 spins the motor over pretty fast so that should resolve the issue about the stater. As it turns out I guess I should have done this from the beginnig. Was hoping to not have to get under the 47 fleetmaster.
To All, Thanks for the information and help with resolving my problem associated with hard starts. I talked to the local starter rebuilder and had a somewhat disappointing results. I told him the test that had been run and the results. Rebuilder checked the starter and said he did not think anything was wrong with the starter. He did not test under load with I thought was wrong. I open up the starter to take a look at the guts and they did not look bad. No drag marks and the brushes had plenty left and the springs holding them in place were strong. So I bit the bullet and jacked the 47 Fleetmaster up and took the starter off it. After putting that starter on the 51 truck it turned over really good. So I do have a bad starter. Not sure what is wrong with it but I am wondering if maybe when it was rebuilt they rebuilt it for 12 volts. Now I have to find a new local starter rebuilder as the one the family have been using forever did not seem to care what I had to say about the starter. Thanks for all the help.
Most likely shorted windings in the armature. To know for sure it would have to be tested with a growler. A tool not many would have these days or even know what one is. At least you know the problem is the starter.
I was interested in your topic and looked it up . A short You Tube video that explain and shows what a growler is ! Tell us if you got it fixed Thank you Martinius.
I blew the head on my engine a few years ago...and it (I forget the proper term) hyper locked up for milli seconds. Long story short....it turned out the main shaft of the starter was broken. Had the same symptoms you say and could not pin point it easily, because it turned nice at times and bad at times. just happened to take the starter out and hot wired it a few times and nnoticed a slight odd move3ment. rod
Well I am out of town so it will be a couple of weeks before I can find a new rebuilder. The starter guts look good. I opened up the starter to see how it looked. Nothing broken or bent. WI'll have rebuilder check that the gear pushes out correctly to mate with the fly wheel. The only gears are for mating the flywheel and they had the same number.
Be sure you have the right starter. Also, the spring that helps the starter drive engage the flywheel is an important part of the system. It was an ingenious setup in its simplicity, but it all needs to be considered.
Final update, I got home from the required family traveling to see relatives over Thanksgiving. Was sitting in the recliner when I remembered that I had an extra starter. Went to the shed and was able to find the starter and removed the armature and install in the starter for the truck. The truck now starts better than it has since being rebuilt. Thanks to everybody who gave hints and advice on how to find the problem. I now believe that I will not have to charge the battery every time I start the truck.
Thank you for this detailed thread . Did you ever get the timing issue sorted out ? . If the flywheel is mounted 180 degrees off I'm pretty sure you can still use the # 6 cylinder to time it .
Given the 153624 firing order, cylinders 1 and 6 fire 360 degrees (one full turn) away from each other. So as far as the timing mark is concerned 1 and 6 fire at the same time. I don't know about the Chevy sixes, but the spacing on the flywheel bolt holes on GMC sixes with 6 bolt flanges are not evenly spaced, so there is only one way to install them.
