Very helpful Steve. So you used 2 x 6's for wall studs? I am thinking about using 2 x 4's to cut down on cost since these wall panels aren't structural to the building... I'd still place them flush with the front of the columns, and still use the thicker 6" thick insulation. Your thoughts? _____ John
John, I was going to use 2X4s also, however, I got the opportunity to buy a bundle of 2X6s right off a buddies semi trailer cheap. I might just use 2X4s to finish. I'm curious, when does the construction window close out there? Hope they get started soon. My building was built in October, 1990. I left to haul grain, was gone a few days. When I left, there were only my flags in the yard. When I returned, the building was done. My wife said they did it in three days. The only thing that bugged me was, for some reason, they moved the back end of the building about 3 feet from where it was flagged. Don't know why, and it was too late to change it.
Construction window..... any time prior to when my boot goes up their A$$? I am trying to comprehend why it takes 2 weeks to get a freaking 45 minute CAD update done. If I don't hear back before eob tomorrow I think Morton or Cleary just got themselves a sale. I just hate to get at the back of the line this late in the game. The reality is the weather here really isn't usually that bad until after the first of the year. But of course El Nino is forecasted to be upon us this year and they are saying lots of snow. If I can just get them to get moving forward and get the building erected and weather tight, before old man winter arrives, all will be ok. In the meantime, we are looking to buy a wood stove. All the cars are now under roof. If need be we'll sit the entire deal out till next spring. I'm going to start drawing a 2 x 4 sub-wall structure and run some calc's on it. I'll be hanging wall cabinets, so there will be some loading, all be it pretty minimal. Update: 09-25-2015 Received round three of approval drawings yesterday, 09-24-2015. Doors are now located in correct locations, trusses and cross bracing looks good. Still shows girts mounted horizontally with no joist hangers, and there were a couple other small omissions and errors. So it's back to the drawing board..... this one should be quick and painless, so I have been told. I created a CAD model of the insert stud walls using 2 x 4's and then ran finite element analysis on it. It's not a very accurate model since wood and steel don't react the same structurally. Nonetheless it did give me a good comfort level that the 2 x 4's will produce an inner wall that will be "hell-for-stout".
I saw some of those "concealed flange hangers" yesterday at Menards. Did they give you any idea about when the crew will show up and start boring holes? Between your electric heaters and a good wood stove, you should be in good shape for winter. Several guys around here are putting in those outside wood burners, with circulating pumps for heated water. In fact, I've had several inquire about me hauling in semi loads of coal for them, so they don't have to split wood. I would consider opening an old-time coal yard right here behind my shop, but, unfortunately, Obamas EPA is busy closing coal mines, esp. eastern Kentucky ones, where you could still get the best coal. Guess the EPA is all about polluting Colorado, and not considering what is best for America. If only we could turn things around... Steve.
Burning coal is nasty for a residential application, IMO. Folks forget just how nasty it is in regard to suit on everything. At least that's my take. For power plants sure, but residential, not so much. We received 3 of the barn approval drawings this morning. Drawings are looking good, only a couple easy changes and we should be ready for the permit. When will they start boring holes? Once the permit process is complete. Call me Mr. Pessimist, but until permits are approved I don't know for sure that the building is a reality. My guess would be 2 weeks. I've attached an outline drawing showing how I plan to build the interior floating perimeter walls. (click on the pdf below for a good clear copy). I'm using some cross bracing to move the loading down into the columns. This reduces the vertical deflection / stresses considerably in the center of the panels that result from hanging wall cabinets. Why 2 piece wall construction, with upper and lower sections? The building has a 2x6 wainscot girt mounted horizontally. That will become the transition between the upper and lower wall sections. See "Detail a & B" in the drawing for a visual. The upper wall 16" on center studs allows for more fasteners to attach the wall cabinets to the studs. The lower 24" on center studs are for attaching the T1-11 interior siding to the walls / building columns. I'm starting to get excited about the build.... looking forward to some woodworking. Here's the Finite Elements screen shot of the lower wall: _____ John Edited 10-24-2015: Drawing now Revision 2: Added Joist Hangers, 80d Nails
John, I think your wall drawings look fantastic. I now wish I had done something similar. I believe your barn will be the most thought-out, planned, I'm guessing, supervised construction, pole barn ever built. I would be excited, also. Building your own is much better than re-purposing a old existing barn. Hope the permit bureau doesn't give you any trouble. I'm curious how the build crew will react to such owner "hands on" supervision. If you get permits quickly, are they ready to build now? Steve.
They are finishing up the building down in Canon City... but they should be done with it this week. That building is slated to have full electrical and drywall by sub-contractors, so the building crew should be cut free. The rep. from Lester is the hands on job site foreman and used to be the shop foreman for Lockheed Martin Propulsion in Littleton. He's a stand up guy & we get along well. During our discussions my comment to him was: "build it to the print and we won't have any problems, if you deviate from the print we will need a change order from the engineer, and/or, the drawing revised". He agreed, stating that is their normal operating procedure. The inspectors here for the county seem to be on the same page. Time will tell.... Today I made an outline drawing of the center dividing wall that will go between the maintenance bay and the storage half of the barn. Should help to the clean "stuff" cleanish. A jpg photo of the wall drawing is shown below, and a good clear pdf is also included as an attachment below. I'm going to use a sliding barn door arrangement in the back.... maybe eventually install an overhead garage door there at some point. ______ John
Pole Barn Drawings and related data submitted to County today... They said it would take about 2 weeks... and of course $412.00. So we are now in hurry up and wait mode _____ John
Ok.... It takes a bureaucrat...2 weeks...and...$412.00, to approve a building, drawn by an engineer, and reviewed by another engineer, to issue a permit??? I'm struggling to keep this post positive... I'll just say this: I will be GLAD, when you have it in your hand. Steve.
I'm so glad I was able to build my own, in the city limits. Don't spend too much time worrying about how many cabinets you can hang on your walls as all weight is transferred to concrete, and it does a pretty good job of holding weight. You could hang your truck on a wall if you could find hangers that would hold it~ The studs would be fine just as they are. (Just don't hang one from the ceiling. That's a whole 'nuther story. Why, I remember a feller that did just that, that was on this site. He lived in an area of heavy snow, and actually hung his truck from the ceiling of his big metal building. Never saw the end results of his ride. I can only hope it was because of something other than the roof collapsing.
I love creating "my own thing". I built this door from ideas others had. It's like taking a bi-fold door and turning it horizontal. It works great, and someday will be hooked to an opener. (As soon as I have about 300 bucks to spare.) We look forward to pictures of your progress!
With a pole building the floor and the columns can move independently of one another. The walls only attach to the building columns and do not sit on, or attach to, the concrete floor. The floating walls therefore transfer no load whatsoever into the concrete.... that's the point of doing the analysis to ensure the wooden structure can handle all the loading. Nice job on the garage door. I have always thought those types of overhead doors were awesome as they make their own awning when they are up. Is that an optical illusion, or do you have some sort of staked board running across the garage door opening at the bottom?
Now that I have drawings from Lester Buildings.... I created a CAD Model of my Pole Barn. Creating the model is kind of like pre-building the barn, really helped me to understand the way "Lester" designs and builds their barns. I asked them to design cross bracing in the trusses that would still allow for me to build some lofts for storage. Their design is pretty slick. Barn is rated for 116 mph winds. Getting excited.... looking forward to the build. _____ John
So do you want your walls to move so you can have ventilation? No illusion on my photo. The top of that board is to be the height of the finished floor, when an if that ever happens... I had it set up where the side in front of my little boat could be removed, while the side in front of my truck was a bit more permanent. Now I have it to where it is just one long board that comes out since I have my truck on the streets every weekend.
The walls don't move Zig, the concrete slab does. The walls are attached to the columns that are sunk into the ground. With a pole building the concrete slab just sits on the ground, not a foundation like stick built construction. When temp's drop the concrete can lift upward, the floating wall allows the concrete to do this without affecting the walls. This isn't a new concept, it's been done for years. Our last home had a basement and there was expansive soils in the area that required all the walls to be of the floating design. Some folks don't do the floating walls on a pole building and have no problems. For me it's not that much more work to have the peace of mind.
I see~ Frost heave. So digging a footer all the way around that goes below the frost line wouldn't help? Not to mention the inside of your barn shouldn't get below freezing, right? Just wondering. I've been out of the building trade for about 18 years now, and I'm only use to construction methods where maybe the winters are as harsh as where you are. This is all very interesting. Just seeing framework go up is an exciting thing!
Yes "digging a footer all the way around" would help, but that's not the design concept of a traditional pole building. There is no footer anywhere except under each post. This saves a lot money in excavation costs and labor. They do build hybrid pole buildings exactly that way though. As for the inside getting below freezing.... I am sure it will. As for the winters being harsh here, most of the folks in the United States think Colorado is just one big ski resort.... you'd be surprised. I lived in Ohio for 43 years before moving to Colorado. The winters where we live here are much "easier" than Ohio. Colorado is a big state, with big differences in how intense the winters are based on where you live. 300 days of sunshine and very low humidity means the snow we do get doesn't stay long, at least where we live that's the case. Thanks for all your input and comments Zig... much appreciated. _____ John
While we wait, on a permit... Let's talk about concrete. I was always told, the slower the cure of the concrete, the stronger the final product. That is why we spread plastic sheeting down, under the concrete in my shop. I also kept the big doors shut, to keep the sun off it. I would also, mist water on it, once a day. With your dry climate, and absorbant soil, I would think plastic would be even more important. Are you going to use fibered concrete, or some sort of steel reinforcement? Epoxy finish coating, or, something like Racedeck? I'm thinking, if you use epoxy, your not supposed to spray any concrete sealer on it. If you do, to get by, for a year or two, you would have to strip it off before application of the epoxy. I like epoxy for heavier vehicles, but, Racedeck looks really cool for car shops. Many, possibilities for patterns and colors. One other thing I thought of for you. Many of the barns around here have some sort of weathervane. Roosters, cows, horses, even pigs, for hog-farmers. You need one also. Only yours should be, a custom silhouette of a "lakeroadster". You could work on that, while you wait. Steve.
Concrete... I agree on the plastic under layment, and the slow cure, and keeping sun off of it. Since it won't be poured until November it should have nice cool temp's. Not planning on any rebar. There seems to be a lot of back and forth over on "The Garage Journal" about if it is needed. What did you do on your slab Steve, any rebar or fiber mesh? As for sealing or coating with Epoxy or ??.... Probably not, at least not in the main work bay. I didn't use anything on my last two shops. I know a lot of folks do this but with the welding, grinding and other fab work I do it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. I might use something in the bays where I plan to store vehicles, but that will be next years adventure. Weathervane There is a barn near here that has a huge "hornet" as a weather vane on top of a huge cupola. I probably won't do the weather vane, we can't see the roof from the house due to all the pinion pine trees. Thanks again for your input Steve, much appreciated Updates: The dirt guy is supposed to show up sometime this week to level the site..... I called the county inspector on Friday and he said he was reviewing the drawings..... Today I updated my drawing using the CAD model I previously posted photo's of. There's a bit more height in the main bay than is needed... more is better in the lift bay. Looks like a full size extended cab pickup with a topper on the bed will work at full lift height.
Yeah, it's probably under stacks of stuff, like "Modern Bureaucrat" magazines, and had coffee spilled on it... I'm sorry, I shouldn't think like that. My shop floor ranges between 5" and a little over 6", of, I think, 6000 psi concrete with "elephant hair" fiber mixed in. The plan was 5", but, the amish boy on my tractor got carried away dragging the fill out in the back corners. I have never "finished" my floor with anything but concrete sealer, for the same reasons you stated. The gloss white epoxy I've been around and worked on is at the local airport. It has worked real well, there, with moderately heavy jets on it. No blue-tip work at the airport, though. I finished the floor on my attached garage with simple rustoleum floor paint for garages purchased at Lowes. It also has worked well, no signs of wear after three years. If it does start to look bad, I would probably use Racedeck over it. When I do any heavy duty torch cutting or grinding inside, I slide a heavy sheet of steel under the work, so as to protect the floor. I do have a couple of scars, were heavy parts, like rear ends out of big trucks hit the floor a little too hard. I've found that small chips and scars can be repaired permanently with JB weld. Just use it like body filler, then sand it smooth. Here's some pics. of the home for the gen 1 Camaro's. Same size as your plans, I believe, but, I think 10 foot walls. Nice details, full slab out front. I like the colors he picked. Small AC cools the whole shop. Steve.
