ccharr
Member
Below are some photos I took tonight of the engine compartment on the manifold side showing where there is an oil leak from the head down the side of the block and a view of the other side. Was wondering what will cause it to do this?
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why does a head leak oil
- Thread starter ccharr
- Start date
Zig
Member
Man, that is (otherwise) a very clean engine! I agree~ it looks as though it's coming from the gasket. Not much of a leak, but...
MT AZ
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The leaks all seem to be concentrated under the intake ports only.
Looks more like fuel leaking from the intake to head seal.
Maybe from not using the alignment rings?
Maybe a bad intake manifold gasket ?
Maybe from running it too rich ?
Don't look like a head gasket leak to me.
Looks more like fuel leaking from the intake to head seal.
Maybe from not using the alignment rings?
Maybe a bad intake manifold gasket ?
Maybe from running it too rich ?
Don't look like a head gasket leak to me.
Blueflame236
Member
leakage ?
Charles.
I agree with Joe here.I suggest you could clean the intake/exhaust intakes and buy a new gasket there.Usually these gaskets are splittet and very thin. I bought an all in one gasket for the chevy wich is of a much better quality.
If there is a beginning cylinder top leak a wisling sound will come, you could test that having some thick soap foam on it and see if there will apear bobles there.
Martinius.
Charles.
I agree with Joe here.I suggest you could clean the intake/exhaust intakes and buy a new gasket there.Usually these gaskets are splittet and very thin. I bought an all in one gasket for the chevy wich is of a much better quality.
If there is a beginning cylinder top leak a wisling sound will come, you could test that having some thick soap foam on it and see if there will apear bobles there.
Martinius.
ccharr
Member
Thanks Joe,
It had a exhaust leak for some time I have replaced the exhaust manifold gaskets once before and was later told the leaks were because I still had the 216 manifolds on it. I have since exchanged an another set of 235 manifolds with Nate some time back which I'll install this weekend if time allows. I have a guy coming over to look at the 2 tractors I'm wanting to sell and may have to take one of them to it's new home.
It had a exhaust leak for some time I have replaced the exhaust manifold gaskets once before and was later told the leaks were because I still had the 216 manifolds on it. I have since exchanged an another set of 235 manifolds with Nate some time back which I'll install this weekend if time allows. I have a guy coming over to look at the 2 tractors I'm wanting to sell and may have to take one of them to it's new home.
ccharr
Member
Martinius,
I bought gaskets already and they are the split ones. As you can see all the parts are off the engine and the new to me 235 manifold is ready to go on,which will happen with an hour or so I hope. Then the fit for the carb from Tom Langdon will be fitted again for the third time. If I can not get it to work correctly them I will go to one of the 235 1 barrel carbs.
Was hoping the oil leak was not a problem which needed the head removed before I could go further.
Charles
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ccharr
Member
Spent a couple of hours getting the manifold on 2 times, the last two bolts I find later should be longer than the others, it was not put back that way from the re-builders or me when I replaced the exhaust gaskets once but then again I did not have that bolt for the other engine either. At Allen's place when we loaded the engine I wondered then why that bolt being used to help hoist the engine with the manifold washer on it went, Now I know. Tomorrow I'll buy 2 new bolts and have the other for a spare for the Payson engine.
Charles
Charles
Elky67
Member
Warpage?
Charles, did you check the manifolds for being square on the ports with a straightedge?
Mine also had a leaking gasket and a few other issues, so after taking them off
and cleaning all the flanges, i?ve used a straightedge and was amazed, how
warped they were.
I didn?t feel to comfortable, with the thin paper gasket and due to not having
any choices, i got some graphite gasket material from a hardware house and made my own. This material is awesome, a bit tough, to cut out, as it has a stainless foil in between the graphite layers, but once done, perfect, as its about 1.5mm think and so can compensate the uneven surface much better, i guess.
Hope you get your truck running again soon
Charles, did you check the manifolds for being square on the ports with a straightedge?
Mine also had a leaking gasket and a few other issues, so after taking them off
and cleaning all the flanges, i?ve used a straightedge and was amazed, how
warped they were.
I didn?t feel to comfortable, with the thin paper gasket and due to not having
any choices, i got some graphite gasket material from a hardware house and made my own. This material is awesome, a bit tough, to cut out, as it has a stainless foil in between the graphite layers, but once done, perfect, as its about 1.5mm think and so can compensate the uneven surface much better, i guess.
Hope you get your truck running again soon
Flashlight
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Just two thoughts, When a head gasket is blown the vehicle runs and hauls poorly, I thought you had said previously you made a great run fully loaded and the truck ran great. Which would seem that the head gasket isn't bad.
Also check with Nate, you can put bolts in the ends of the exhaust manifold but they not used to torque down the manifolds. I could be way off as its early and I've only had 2 sips of coffee. But I remember him telling me something about that as I looked for the end compression lugs.
Also check with Nate, you can put bolts in the ends of the exhaust manifold but they not used to torque down the manifolds. I could be way off as its early and I've only had 2 sips of coffee. But I remember him telling me something about that as I looked for the end compression lugs.
ccharr
Member
Charles, did you check the manifolds for being square on the ports with a straightedge?
Mine also had a leaking gasket and a few other issues, so after taking them off
and cleaning all the flanges, i?ve used a straightedge and was amazed, how
warped they were.
I didn?t feel to comfortable, with the thin paper gasket and due to not having
any choices, i got some graphite gasket material from a hardware house and made my own. This material is awesome, a bit tough, to cut out, as it has a stainless foil in between the graphite layers, but once done, perfect, as its about 1.5mm think and so can compensate the uneven surface much better, i guess.
Hope you get your truck running again soon
I did not check this set of manifolds, the old ones were 216's that were left on when whom ever before me switched to the 235 engine. I had swooped another set of 235's for this one I'm installing now. hopefully I will not have that problem once this switch over is done.
If I have to reinstall these again I'll check with a straight edge.
I still have to tackle the 2 barrel linkage yet once I get pass this little issue.
Then on to get the exhaust piping change to fit.
Charles
Blueflame236
Member
Straightning out the manifold flanges.
Charles !
If you have a large mirror and put some fine steel grinding wet paper or grinding pasta on to it you can get it straighten out. Its a secure job to do but it works well.
Another option is to have an engine manufactor shop to do it in the machine.
Have some cold beer in the fridge while your hands are resting
Have a nice weekend.
Charles !
If you have a large mirror and put some fine steel grinding wet paper or grinding pasta on to it you can get it straighten out. Its a secure job to do but it works well.
Another option is to have an engine manufactor shop to do it in the machine.
Have some cold beer in the fridge while your hands are resting
Have a nice weekend.
Last edited:
Zig
Member
I don't know about you, Charles, but I read "have some cold beer" TWICE and I forgot what the hell your problem was... WaaHoo! 
ccharr
Member
Steve,
When a head gasket blows things will happen had asked about what appears to be an oil leak starting at the head to block area as shown in the photo. And after looking at the 41 9N and the stain it has below the shut-off valve they look very similar. The Manifold gasket leaks this truck has had since the rebuild most likely are the items Joe talked about
Could be both the maybe 1 & 2, I do not believe I have ever bought anything but regular fuel/gas for it.
The bolts I talking about are the ones that only use the little cupped washer and should be longer than the others as should in the link, http://www.ebay.com/itm/49-50-51-52...Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c803248e&vxp=mtr the very end has the studs in them to line the manifold which would be hole 1 and 8 the longer bolts are for what appears to be hole 2 and 7. When they re did the engine they must have just put back what was there, and when I replaced the gasket I did the same not knowing and just laying out what I took off and then put back.
Hopefully all will go back tomorrow, I have the an appointment for the muffler shop first thing monday morning.
Charles
ccharr
Member
Martinius,Charles !
If you have a large mirror and put some fine steel grinding wet paper or grinding pasta on to it you can get it straighten out. Its a secure job to do but it works well.
Another option is to have an engine manufactor shop to do it in the machine.
Have some cold beer in the fridge while your hands are resting
Have a nice weekend.
I've taken off the 216 manifolds which have been giving me problems and putting on a set of 235 manifolds and the Tom 2 barrel. if the tom 2 barrel gives me any trouble I will take it off and take a smoke wrench to it, I have some other carbs to fit this new to me 236 manifold, if it blows the exhaust gasket I will at that time go have the manifold fixed. I do not drink the fire water or the wood flavored spirits. But I do love a very very cold glass of Iced Tea or Pepsi. When I lived in Northern Calif. during the winter I may have used that mirror trick for the manifolds but today it is easier to have it done by others. It is a great idea if I had the time to spare.
Thanks for suggesting that.
Charles
ccharr
Member
Weeps & Seeps
I hope you wire brushed both sides , head & manifold until clean & shiny metal as old bits of rust / gasket makes for poor sealing .
The end pins must not ever have bolts nor studs nuts & washers ! .
Once you have the manifolds offered up and the bolts & special washers in , begin by tightening the center two then the next outer two and finally the last , outermost bolts ~ this is really critical as the manifold is long and cast iron so it ' crawls ' in normal operation , causing leaks , weeps & seeps .
To easily test for intake leaks , warm it up and when it's idling , spray some ether or whatever up onto the intake runner to cylinder head joints using a plastic snorkel ~ be cautious as you can scald your hands but any leak will allow the spray to get *instantly* sucked in and cause erratic idle .
I'll address cylinder head gasket oil leaks later if you need , yes it can blow the gasket and leak oil but still run *perfectly* , the two are separate .
I hope you wire brushed both sides , head & manifold until clean & shiny metal as old bits of rust / gasket makes for poor sealing .
The end pins must not ever have bolts nor studs nuts & washers ! .
Once you have the manifolds offered up and the bolts & special washers in , begin by tightening the center two then the next outer two and finally the last , outermost bolts ~ this is really critical as the manifold is long and cast iron so it ' crawls ' in normal operation , causing leaks , weeps & seeps .
To easily test for intake leaks , warm it up and when it's idling , spray some ether or whatever up onto the intake runner to cylinder head joints using a plastic snorkel ~ be cautious as you can scald your hands but any leak will allow the spray to get *instantly* sucked in and cause erratic idle .
I'll address cylinder head gasket oil leaks later if you need , yes it can blow the gasket and leak oil but still run *perfectly* , the two are separate .
ccharr
Member
Cracked ice off one of them old large blocks was so so good with the Pepsi or a Dad's Root Beer. At the street fair the City of Simi had recently I bought 2 large glass mugs I put in the freezer and put ice in then the Pepsi for the frosted mug drink.
I have the manifold we traded on with new bolts and washers i had got some time way back thing looks good but the first fire up was not nice. Will see what happens tomorrow.
Would like to hear about the oil leak and the gasket, some time soon.
Charles
I have the manifold we traded on with new bolts and washers i had got some time way back thing looks good but the first fire up was not nice. Will see what happens tomorrow.
Would like to hear about the oil leak and the gasket, some time soon.
Charles
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Head Gasket Oil Seeps
Head gasket oil seeps have long been a problem , some brands moreso than others .
The reason can be wildly varied so careful inspection and assembly is important
As long as no compression leaks , shaving (planing) the head or block isn't always the best idea because it may have been done before and you can easily raise the compression ratio so high the engine no longer runs well , worse on to - day's crappo " Motor Fuel " that by design , isn't Gasoline .
Careless assembly by the DPO / DPM or repeated overheating over the decades can cause the deck of the block to pooch up around the threaded bolt holes causing poor sealing ~ this can be discerned by rubbing some carbon paper on the deck , if it's shiny around the threaded holes , it'll cause gasketing failures .
Happliy this can easily be fixed by getting one of those cheapo drill press things that uses a hand drill motor held in by a clamp , use a long drill bit slightly larger than the threaded hole and counter sink it 3/16" or so , then chase the threads so the head bolts or studs (as the case may be) don't have any resistance tightening .
Chasing the threaded holes in any case is always a good idea as 50 + years means the threads might be stiff , rusty , have SWARF or dirt fallen in them etc.
If you can't easily spin the bolts all the way into each and every threaded hole , it's not going to seal correctly .
As you're working on an assembled engine ,you don't want to remove the pistons etc. but worry about metal shavings & SWARF getting in a cylinder & lodging in the ring lands and then scoring your cylinders , what to do ?
.
Simple : buy several rolls of that blue Painter's Tape and some cans of Starting Fluid (ether) and have Hospital Clean rags at hand :
Wipe the block's deck clean with ether soaked rags (don't get high nor pass out from the Ether , fall over and clonk your head) until they come up white when you run them on the deck's surface , allow to dry (a minute at most if it's truly clean) then use the widest Blue Tape to tape over the whole deck , cylinders and all , before setting up the drill press and *lightly* chamfering the threaded holes . when finished , vacuum up the shavings , chase the holes with a good , lightly oiled tap , wipe clean again then remove the remaining tape , clean off the tape's glue residue and you're ready to CAREFULLY re assemble .
A trick learned from High Dollar engines (Porsche , Ferrari etc.) is to run the head bolts in finger tight then set your torque wrench to 5 # and tighten them beginning in the middle of the head and working your way equally outwards , once tight adjust the torque wrench 5 # higher and repeat ~ keep doing this until you reach the specified torque value .
Yes , this takes a long time but drawing the mallable cast iron head to the block slowly and equally , prevents leaks for decades and , once the engine is properly assembled it should remain so for at least 20 years and 90,000 miles .
This works for all cylinder heads , alloy , whatever .
I always use Permatex " Kopper Kote " spray on both sides of the head gasket , at least two coats , I hang it up , spray it until a complete light cover then allow to tack up for 10 ~ 15 minutes , re - coat it again , allow another 10 ~ 15 minutes then I assemble the cylinder head to the engine .
Once in a while you'll get one (usually 'T' model Brand 'F' products) but very common on all flathead engines that persists in weeping oil between the deck and the block , this can be fixed my painting a 1/2" wide stripe of flat white latex house paint around the entire perimeter of the head gasket instead of the Kopper Kote .
It's morning , I'm groggy so I hope no spelling errors nor forgotten things but these tips work ~ I hate weeps & seeps and flat refuse to have weepy head gaskets on my engines .
Time and attention to the details is the main thing here , do not get frustrated nor angry , it's an old Machine that's had millions of thermal cycles and God alone knows what typ or DPO / Bubba insults done to it , it depends on YOU to set things right again and will reward you will many decades of faithful , reliable and economical service if you take the time to do things right .
90 % of all the repair works I do , involve fixing DPO/DPM errors .
I hope this is what you were asking for , consider printing and saving this as it's full of good , time tested tricks .
Head gasket oil seeps have long been a problem , some brands moreso than others .
The reason can be wildly varied so careful inspection and assembly is important
As long as no compression leaks , shaving (planing) the head or block isn't always the best idea because it may have been done before and you can easily raise the compression ratio so high the engine no longer runs well , worse on to - day's crappo " Motor Fuel " that by design , isn't Gasoline .
Careless assembly by the DPO / DPM or repeated overheating over the decades can cause the deck of the block to pooch up around the threaded bolt holes causing poor sealing ~ this can be discerned by rubbing some carbon paper on the deck , if it's shiny around the threaded holes , it'll cause gasketing failures .
Happliy this can easily be fixed by getting one of those cheapo drill press things that uses a hand drill motor held in by a clamp , use a long drill bit slightly larger than the threaded hole and counter sink it 3/16" or so , then chase the threads so the head bolts or studs (as the case may be) don't have any resistance tightening .
Chasing the threaded holes in any case is always a good idea as 50 + years means the threads might be stiff , rusty , have SWARF or dirt fallen in them etc.
If you can't easily spin the bolts all the way into each and every threaded hole , it's not going to seal correctly .
As you're working on an assembled engine ,you don't want to remove the pistons etc. but worry about metal shavings & SWARF getting in a cylinder & lodging in the ring lands and then scoring your cylinders , what to do ?
.Simple : buy several rolls of that blue Painter's Tape and some cans of Starting Fluid (ether) and have Hospital Clean rags at hand :
Wipe the block's deck clean with ether soaked rags (don't get high nor pass out from the Ether , fall over and clonk your head) until they come up white when you run them on the deck's surface , allow to dry (a minute at most if it's truly clean) then use the widest Blue Tape to tape over the whole deck , cylinders and all , before setting up the drill press and *lightly* chamfering the threaded holes . when finished , vacuum up the shavings , chase the holes with a good , lightly oiled tap , wipe clean again then remove the remaining tape , clean off the tape's glue residue and you're ready to CAREFULLY re assemble .
A trick learned from High Dollar engines (Porsche , Ferrari etc.) is to run the head bolts in finger tight then set your torque wrench to 5 # and tighten them beginning in the middle of the head and working your way equally outwards , once tight adjust the torque wrench 5 # higher and repeat ~ keep doing this until you reach the specified torque value .
Yes , this takes a long time but drawing the mallable cast iron head to the block slowly and equally , prevents leaks for decades and , once the engine is properly assembled it should remain so for at least 20 years and 90,000 miles .
This works for all cylinder heads , alloy , whatever .
I always use Permatex " Kopper Kote " spray on both sides of the head gasket , at least two coats , I hang it up , spray it until a complete light cover then allow to tack up for 10 ~ 15 minutes , re - coat it again , allow another 10 ~ 15 minutes then I assemble the cylinder head to the engine .
Once in a while you'll get one (usually 'T' model Brand 'F' products) but very common on all flathead engines that persists in weeping oil between the deck and the block , this can be fixed my painting a 1/2" wide stripe of flat white latex house paint around the entire perimeter of the head gasket instead of the Kopper Kote .
It's morning , I'm groggy so I hope no spelling errors nor forgotten things but these tips work ~ I hate weeps & seeps and flat refuse to have weepy head gaskets on my engines .
Time and attention to the details is the main thing here , do not get frustrated nor angry , it's an old Machine that's had millions of thermal cycles and God alone knows what typ or DPO / Bubba insults done to it , it depends on YOU to set things right again and will reward you will many decades of faithful , reliable and economical service if you take the time to do things right .
90 % of all the repair works I do , involve fixing DPO/DPM errors .
I hope this is what you were asking for , consider printing and saving this as it's full of good , time tested tricks .